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Here's something that I've been thinking about lately. I have a friend who loves to argue about various topics, which is great... However, he can also be counted on to take the most ridiculous side of any argument and the one that is farthest from societal norms as possible. One of his favorite concepts for winning arguments is moral relativism. (Please correct me if I have any of this wrong.) ie, the idea that what is morally correct to one person may not be morally correct to another or said another way. Another way that this comes out is talking about if something is right or wrong. For example, (in my opinion) I dont have any problem with the concept of using force to protect yourself and your family, but I'm not comfortable with using force in every situation. "Where do you draw the line?" is the constant question. Another example might be the starving man and the loaf of bread on the window sill. Is it morally justifiable for him to steal it?
One of the values of a religious system is that there is a clear set of rules to live by (even if people often ignore them.)
I guess my question, if I have one, is, in a world of moral relativism, how do we come up with a set of non-abitrary rules to govern behaviour? It's not really my behaviour that I am worried about, since I think I have a good idea of my own limits... However, some of you might not be happy with those rules.
Just a thought...
One of the values of a religious system is that there is a clear set of rules to live by (even if people often ignore them.)
I guess my question, if I have one, is, in a world of moral relativism, how do we come up with a set of non-abitrary rules to govern behaviour? It's not really my behaviour that I am worried about, since I think I have a good idea of my own limits... However, some of you might not be happy with those rules.
Just a thought...
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Re: Moral Relativism
Wed, August 20, 2003 - 2:41 PMIn a world of moral relativism, rules are ultimately determined by what keeps people living together relatively happily. In our society enforcing a rule prohibiting pedophilia contributes to a "safer feeling" environment. Similarly laws against theft don't need a religious reason - people live better closer together when things like theft, murder, and assault are prohibited and offenders are prosecuted.
We don't need a god to tell us it's wrong to steal stuff - prohibiting such actions makes our environment safer and ultimately allows us to be more productive.
Compare and contrast with the taliban which had very strictly enforced morals based on religion. According to their "morals" women should be kept almost completely out of society. Ultimately this experiment would have failed because they were shutting 50% of the economy down and thus greatly hampering their productivity and greatly increasing their own poverty.
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Re: Moral Relativism
Wed, August 20, 2003 - 9:19 PMI would classify myself as a moral relativist. If you're not a relativist, then you believe that there is some ultimate objective list of what is right and wrong. And then it's a question of where that list comes from and by who's authority it's backed up, which begs the question of god again. Since I don't think that god should or cares to (if he/she/it/them exists) be involved in human afairs, then there's not really an ultimate authority in my point of view. Therefore I have to be a relativist.
I think that the reality is that everyone is a relativist whether they admit it or not because regardless of WHERE you get your moral standards from, YOU decided to live by them. And your selections will probably not completely jive with your neighbors even if you share the same religious or cultural background.
Morals are basically conventions that allow groups of humans to live together. There are some that seem to be common within most communities, and some that are radically different between communities. The one universal constant is that no community is WITHOUT a set of rules to live by.
Those rules are usually set up by a general consensus, which is only an agreement by the majority. There are lots of people in the minority who may disagree with the morals of a community but, in the interest of remaining with the group, will keep those differences hidden, or depending on how radical their views are from the rest of the group, become exhiled because of them. Since the morals are established to promote the well being of the group, the group won't be able to deal with someone who doesn't share the same programming for long.
What is "right" and "wrong" is a matter of what your community thinks is right and wrong. If you disagree, then you face the consequences. That doesn't mean you can't take a stand for yourself if you believe something different. As long as you are willing to be an adult and accept responsibilty for your actions, then it shouldn't matter whether people label them right or wrong as long as you feel your actions are right. Your moral conviction won't exclude you from the judgement of your community, however! But sometimes it's necessary to transcend group mentality for a community to evolve.
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Re: Moral Relativism
Fri, December 5, 2003 - 6:44 PMAny guideline by which we determine what's right and wrong, whether it be "allowing people to live happily together and be more productive," or the Bible, or the Koran, or my favorite, "whatever helps human society to perpetuate itself" is arbitrary. Any arbitrary guideline, whether based on what we have defined as 'religion' or otherwise, is really not much different from religion, because it's based on axioms and assertions. Axioms and assertions are as varied as the number of individuals on the planet, literally, and to me are a superset of what we call "faith."
In moral relativism, we think that different rules apply to different people. Practically everyone sane is a moral relativist since no one thinks there is a moral rule for every single action, and moral questions in the real world are almost never simple enough to define by rules. That means we'll never agree on the right thing to do in every case.
Clearly our moral guidelines are shaped by our culture, but you do notice that almost every single culture has a few basic rules in common, for example: don't steal, don't murder, protect children, and give the dead a funeral. Also almost every culture implies or outright states that these rules really only apply to your social group (nation, tribe, family, or whatever).
I think you could make a good argument that there are moral absolutes of a kind if there are rules that are common throughout all cultures. These moral absolutes don't at all imply that there is a God - they can be just adaptive human behaviors - things that allowed our ancestors to survive instead of others. So until something in our environment changes radically, what we never want to do is defeat those behaviors, if we want to survive as a society or even as a species. -
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Unsu...
Re: Moral Relativism
Fri, December 5, 2003 - 7:27 PMIt seems that a combination of moral relativism and ethical tolerance could be the basis of a dogma free society. The principles are straight forward and well developed. If we would teach these ideas with the same rigor with which we teach religion and history, maybe weave them into the teaching of both, within a generation people would be graduating into society with the preparation to solve problems and build an egalitarian civilization that can scale to global proportions, unlike any prior form of government.
Perhaps even merging into science instruction, the ethical and moral issues of scientific advances have always been handled poorly. Recent developments indicate that the debate over bioengineering and nanotechnology are going to stretch our system again, resulting in the same twisting of the metaphorical shorts back into the crack of religion and superstition. The result is an emotional roller coaster that ignores the real issues of safety, the environment and the complete understanding of the impact of the technology on society.
The use of moral relativism and ethical tolerance principles would require a lessening of religious influences on public policy, putting it back into the churches where it belongs in a secular society. That isn't due to a bias against religion, but the historically gained understanding that pubic policy based on a particular religious interest by definition reduces practitioners of minority religion to second class citizens.
The future of religion depends on the leaders understanding that providing guidance for its followers in the chosen place of worship, nor influencing policy that affects other citizens of a secular society is a more compatible mode of existence.
Moral relativism and ethical tolerance principles can provide the basis for a sustainable future, guiding decisions on everything from education to industry, with decisions made through rational dialog with a good portion of empathy.
Peace....Out.......Joe -
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Unsu...
Re: Moral Relativism
Sun, December 7, 2003 - 10:37 AMClose, very close, it is actually live....and let live. -
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Re: Moral Relativism
Sun, December 7, 2003 - 9:32 PMNot a James Bond fan, then... -
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Unsu...
Re: Moral Relativism
Mon, December 8, 2003 - 10:46 AMNo, I prefer to be stirred, not shaken
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